#136 Strategies for cross-cultural leadership and navigating conflict with Aine Murray

Lucy Gernon (00:01.025)
Hi, Aine, you are very welcome to the show today. How are you?

Áine Murray (00:05.296)
Very well, thank you, Lucy. And thank you so much for inviting me to be on the podcast today as well.

Lucy Gernon (00:09.217)
Of course, my pleasure. So do you want to just tell our listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Áine Murray (00:15.344)
Okay, no problem. Well, I’m Onya Murray. I am the head of marketing communications, corporate responsibility and bid support here at Veolia here in Ireland and Northern Ireland. Veolia’s ambition is all about being the benchmark leader in ecological transformation. So we try and help other organizations to most effectively manage their energy, water and waste resources so that they’re recovering as much as possible and acting as sustainably as possible.

and Veolia is a French organisation. And I have been the Veolia representative in the France -Ireland Chamber of Commerce for over 10 years now. And I’m currently the president of the Chamber of Commerce. So the Chamber of Commerce then, it’s basically a fast track into the Franco -Irish business community with lots of supports offered then as part of that, such as our landing space, which we only set up last year, which is very much, it’s…

an office space or a desk space, but in a very supportive environment where an organization, maybe from France, who are looking at Ireland, might want to set up here, not sure, can come and send an employee right into a business community with all of the connections that they need to then get to know the Irish marketplace and do their research and then decide if they want to enter Ireland or not. Or perhaps a French entrepreneur who has set up in Ireland and is looking to just understand and tap into that business community and work in a more collaborative office space.

And the Franco -Ireland Chamber of Commerce mission, it’s all about that, about supporting, enabling, empowering those kind of convivial strategic partnerships in a Franco -Irish business community. It’s a growing community. It’s a thriving community. It’s very convivial and collaborative. And we’re seeing a lot of investment by our members from France here in Ireland at the moment. So it’s particularly with the relationships that we have between France and Ireland, which are going from strength to strength. My interest in it,

I’ve always been a Francophile. I studied French the whole way up through school and university. I originally qualified as a translator actually. And what I loved was that kind of connection, enabling people to connect together, enabling them to understand each other. And I achieved that, I suppose, first through translation, but now in my own role in Veolia through marketing communications, but also in helping the chamber to achieve that and achieve its mission.

Áine Murray (02:40.752)
of enabling other organizations to connect.

Lucy Gernon (02:42.561)
my God, like I did French in school and I swear to God, I don’t even know what I remember or anything. I just remember, je prends, tu prends, il prend, elle prend. I just remember doing all those verbs I had. I actually liked France, French, but I don’t think I could speak it.

Áine Murray (02:57.776)
no, you would be surprised at the amount of Irish people who I know who can rattle off all the verbs. We have a clearly a very strong ground in our grammar and I’ve also seen even my own friends who didn’t study French in university but the ones who maybe studied up through school get them into a relaxed atmosphere, a social atmosphere, maybe at a rugby match or around a rugby match and the French is flowing very quickly.

Lucy Gernon (03:24.225)
Yeah, it’s mad, actually. My aunt had it has a place in France and I’ve been to France a few times. So like it’s like I could understand it, but then it’s, you know, like the confidence to actually speak another language. So like, are your kids you have kids as well, right? And do they do they speak French, too?

Áine Murray (03:38.16)
I do have kids, I have three.

And a little bit. We go on holidays to France every year and we go, the typical Irish people, to the campsites. And I think the bit that they love the most is that it’s their job every morning to go down to the bakery on the campsite and say, bonjour madame, bonjour monsieur. And they have their little sentences and they know that you can’t just say, like in Ireland, we can just say hello. But in France, you very much have to say bonjour madame or bonjour monsieur. It’s just…

It’s just polite. Exactly. And they know how to say their Merci Madame and their Merci Monsieur and their Au Revoir. And that’s their little bit of independence that they love and they do their little bit in French. So they’re very fluent in bakery French, but beyond that.

Lucy Gernon (04:12.129)
As I guess.

Lucy Gernon (04:25.281)
Yeah, I love it. OK, anyone who like, you know, goes to France, I did not know you had to say Bourgeois Madame. So that’s actually really OK. That’s like the number one takeaway from this podcast for anyone who goes to France. I’m pretty sure. OK, so you have a really diverse background. You’ve got tons of different interests. So I’d love to know, first of all, like from a obviously a lot of the women who listen to this show would be in STEM and a lot of them would lead cross -culturally, a lot or not in STEM too.

Áine Murray (04:31.984)
Yes, you really do.

Áine Murray (04:36.624)
you

Lucy Gernon (04:53.313)
So what do you see, I suppose, firstly, as some of the challenges, you know, dealing cross -culturally?

Áine Murray (05:02.64)
I think when you’re dealing cross -culturally, you have so many different contexts and backgrounds to take into account. And I suppose looking at my point of reference is always going to be kind of Franco -Irish. I’ve worked the longest in European organizations and organizations that had very strong links between France and Ireland. But even within that Franco -Irish culture, you’re going to have subcultures.

You’re going to have different belief backgrounds, different language backgrounds, different cultural references, and even the professions, because I can tell you an engineering culture is very different to an accounting culture, is very different to a marketing and communications culture and ways of interacting and ways of progressing on projects and how you collaborate together. So I think it’s very important to always have that.

establishing your objective in collaborating together first, whether you’re part of a specific project, which is obviously much more specific and time -based, or then in the wider team. And it’s that piece of coming together, agreeing how you’re going to interact together, agreeing what your common objective is. And I think in most circumstances, once you understand your common objective,

And once you have agreed or validated that everybody shares the same picture of what that looks like and hearing everybody in the team articulate that objective in their own language, so you can just make sure that everybody does have that same picture of what you’re ultimately trying to achieve and the timelines you’re trying to achieve it in. The next thing is always down to your terms of engagement. How are you going to decide who speaks first? Is there a

Lucy Gernon (06:27.521)
Mmm.

Áine Murray (06:52.336)
an etiquette for one voice at a time. Is it very hierarchical? Are you in a type of culture where everyone’s just going to wait to see what the most senior person in the room says and then follow them? Because usually that does not lead to your most robust decision making, your most sustainable business impacts. So once you have your terms of engagement agreed, like every voice is equal, this is how we decide who speaks next. We will make sure that everybody has an opportunity to contribute.

that everybody has an opportunity to hold the pen. If you’re in a brainstorming scenario, I admit now, if you’re in a virtual situation, generally it can be everybody holding the pen at the same time and your virtual jam boards. And also engaging, then holding the pen. Also that you’re allowing the time to reflect because you’re going to have the people in the room, whether it’s from their culture or their profession or just their personality type.

who aren’t the type who think out loud and talk their ideas and work them through talking, they will reflect and they will pause. And they’re not being non -participative, but they’re actually really participating, but it’s all internal until they come out with the most profound thing from the whole group at the end. And you have to allow the space to do that. So once, whether you’re in a virtual session or a face -to -face session, once you’re taking that time to reiterate, check in, has everybody had the opportunity to offer an opinion?

Are we following the process that we had to set out at the start about this is how we will reach our decision making, our actions, how we will take on board the input. I think that’s how then you can navigate a lot of the cross -cultural divides because you’re getting around the quieter cultures, the louder cultures, the more direct, the more indirect cultures. Once you’re very clear on the objective, the decision making process or the project process, and then the terms of engagement.

Lucy Gernon (08:47.329)
Amazing. That is such practical advice. I love that. So like just to kind of back up a bit, you said so many so much good stuff there. So you were talking obviously about, you know, I think something that’s super important, which is the whole belief background, because I think so often on values as well, like, you know, in teams, we think everyone we want people to be like us. And we don’t understand, like you mentioned, the reflectors and being inclusive, I suppose. So how do you.

Áine Murray (08:52.368)
Yes.

Áine Murray (09:01.296)
No.

Lucy Gernon (09:14.529)
as a leader then, like, because this is where real leadership comes into play here about casting that vision and helping to paint that common goal and that big picture. Like if I have a listener now who’s like, right, I have a team and they’re all over the world, OK, we need to work on this particular project together. Where do I even start to ensure that I’m being inclusive and hearing all those voices? Like, do you have like a like a kickoff meeting where you agree your terms of engagement? Talk me through that process.

Áine Murray (09:28.528)
Yeah.

Áine Murray (09:44.24)
Yeah, so in a number of the projects I work on where we would have different representatives from all around the world joining, I suppose the first thing to do is to agree a time that works for everybody.

Lucy Gernon (09:57.089)
Simple but like so important, right?

Áine Murray (09:59.792)
And it’s not so that you’re checking, it’s like, these are the options available to us. Do these work in your time zone? Because generally, I think we’re very lucky here in Ireland because when we’ve got the Australians, we’re dialing in just at the end of their evening, with the Americans who are dialing in in their morning, it’s right slap bang around our lunchtime. So you do, so it’s nice and easy for us generally. So once you agree that, then you do have to have that kickoff meeting.

and be very clear, this is our kickoff meeting. This is why you’ve been invited to join this group or this is why you volunteered to join this group. Usually, I think it’s very typical of the French organizations as you tend to volunteer to join the groups. They tend to put out a call. These are the kind of people we need. We want to representation from these type of departments or professions. This is what we need. And then you’ll volunteer and then say, OK, we have our five people or our 10 people.

whichever the project is. And I can only speak obviously from my side of things, which is usually something to do with marketing or communications, corporate responsibilities, where I tend to be getting all the strategy of the company. And once you have your working group, then first meeting, right. This is the goal we’ve been set. This is the objective. What is your understanding of this objective? Okay, right. What are we setting for within our group? Clearing our wording.

Okay, what do we all think is the way we should go about this? How do we want to engage together? It’s standard, I suppose, process in Veolia. And I’ve seen it too. And I think I feel like it’s standard process in a lot of the chamber members too. We agree, how do we want to engage? Who’s, how are we going to do brainstorming? Are we, how are we going to make sure that everyone has the opportunity to speak? How are we going to decide who does what bit? What are, and then mapping out the key steps or processes along the way to get to our goal. And often we’ll appoint.

or agree together a different person to lead each step. Or one overall project leader and we once again we nominate and agree together and somebody volunteer and there’ll be a second in command and say right this is what we’re going to do and then we agree when we check in very clear on what the actions are between meetings and who’s in charge of them and when they’re going to be done by you have and usually everybody goes around and says right just to recap I’m in charge of this this is what I’m doing I’m doing it by then.

Lucy Gernon (11:58.849)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Áine Murray (12:25.552)
so that you can hear that everybody has the same understanding and the people who are doing the actions are clear on what they’re doing too.

Lucy Gernon (12:28.385)
Mm.

So that all sounds, I suppose, really good in theory, right? But we know then in practice, right, there’s going to be times where those cultural clashes occur. So, I mean, it’s inevitable, right? It’s inevitable in life. So how would you recommend that somebody would deal with that as a leader if they notice it? Say if they notice a couple of their team members are just clashing, how would you recommend that they go about starting to deal with that?

Áine Murray (12:35.312)
and sharing.

Áine Murray (12:42.16)
Yes.

Áine Murray (12:58.352)
I think first of all, you have to understand the nature of the conflict. Is it just differing opinions on the question at hand, coming from different contexts? Is it something a bit more personal, personality types or a way of working together? Generally, so depending on what the question, the situation is, you would bring it out into the open to talk about it. Now, how you talk about it and who you talk about it with.

that will obviously vary depending on the nature of how personal it is, how or how objective it is. Is it very project focused or is it more personal? But if it’s more to do with the engagement in the project, it’s revisiting, OK, we said we were going to engage like this. Everybody has an opinion. This is our objective. You seem to have a challenge. Talk to us about the challenge that you’re facing here. Why do you think this part of it is a problem? And everybody.

the leader has to set the tone of that open listening because there is a vulnerability and there is a bravery both in listening without defensiveness and also in articulating the challenge that that person sees or that particular potential problem that that person sees that might occur. And often the conflict is not necessarily solely related to

Lucy Gernon (14:16.129)
Hmm.

Áine Murray (14:25.264)
this instance, usually it’ll be an accumulation of circumstances which are completely outside of this project, this situation, other things might be happening in their organization, in their lives, or this situation is reminding them of a previous project that they worked on where something went wrong and they just want to make sure that that thing doesn’t go wrong again. So it does take time. Say, look, we seem to be hitting a few stumbling blocks here.

Lucy Gernon (14:28.033)
Mmm.

Áine Murray (14:55.248)
can, what’s working well at the moment? What could be improved? What could work better? How could we take this forward together? And that’s a standard approach that we have used a lot in Veolia is kind of taking the time, say, look, we think we’re running into a few stumbling blocks and keeping that very neutral language. What is working well, not what are you doing well or what are you doing? Well, what is working well? Okay, this is what’s working on, great. What is not working well?

Lucy Gernon (15:18.561)
Mmm, so important.

Áine Murray (15:25.392)
Okay, how do we take it forward together? And then everybody having the opportunity, very much round table to chat and creating that this is a safe environment, whatever we do stays in the room so that we can take this forward together. Our objective is, I’m reminding about that objective. I do think it is, I often thought, I have to say it was just a viola thing or just our organization thing, but the more interaction I have with the other,

Lucy Gernon (15:43.521)
Yeah.

Áine Murray (15:53.744)
members of the chamber, I’m starting to think, actually, no, this must be a Franco -Irish thing.

Lucy Gernon (15:57.953)
Hmm. Yeah. I think though it’s so important, like one big mistake I see so many leaders make is not addressing conflict and keep keeping it like surface level. Whereas usually if there’s like, I remember one time I had a couple of members on my team who one was a fiery, let’s just say Spanish blood and one was kind of staunch kind of British. Okay. So it was like very like proper versus fire and they just really did not get along.

Áine Murray (16:06.288)
You have to.

Lucy Gernon (16:27.329)
And I remember like they both, you know, you’d see, you’d feel the tension. It was nothing got to do with the project or the objectives or anything. It was just, they just didn’t get along. So how I always recommend people handle that is like as a leader, like you have to handle that kind of conflict, even if it’s like not project related or it’s not, if you have that negative vibe on your team, it affects absolutely everything. Right. So like, I always think like how I always recommend that we handle stuff like that is, you know, you talk to each individual first, separately.

and say, listen, actively listen, all that lovely coaching approach, and then give them a time frame to sort it out. I would talk to both of them and say, right, you need to sort this out between you over the next two days. And then you watch the monitor how it happens. If not, you pull them into a room, which I’ve had to do many times and mediate because I know a lot of leaders listening hate doing this stuff because it’s like it’s not my job and they’re all adults. Can they not just sort it out?

But unfortunately, when you’ve got these different beliefs and you’ve got these different values and if somebody gets an idea in their head that they just don’t like a person, right, without even giving them an opportunity, I really believe like that’s what sets apart true leaders from leaders who kind of skulk in the background. So like from like if you were ever in that situation in the meeting, have you ever been there where you’ve seen like heated discussions like and is there any tactic that you can use in the moment to really lead?

Áine Murray (17:53.776)
We certainly have been, and I completely agree with you, where you have maybe the one person says something basically has a rant for a few minutes and it’s like, okay, thank you, but we hear what you’re saying. Can we, can I, are you saying that for this project, this is the problem? Is it the, and then it’s very much then saying, right, we have heard you. Can we re, can we rephrase what you have said?

Lucy Gernon (18:02.497)
Yeah.

Áine Murray (18:22.992)
whether that’s a personality or an expression thing. So are we going to, is this relating to the how we’re all interacting together? Is this relating to the actual project itself? Right, let’s just rephrase there. Does that capture your opinion? Yes, okay. How are we gonna take this forward together? Can we all just have a think about those actions? We’re gonna take a five minute break to go get a cup of tea, quick comfort break, and we’ll come back into the room. And normally just having the change of air.

Lucy Gernon (18:51.201)
Mmm.

Áine Murray (18:51.792)
people walking together, maybe then, as you say, walking with that person towards the tea break, having a quick chat with them, checking in, how are you, is this really to do with this? Is this, what is this to do with? Okay, how are we going to get ourselves back into the room and back to the objective at hand? So that’s generally what in the couple of situations in the past where we’ve done it. And then when we go back into the room reiterating, this is why we’re here. This is what we want to, we want to hear everybody’s opinion.

but we also want to take this forward. And we’re going to do that according to the terms of engagement that we’ve set out and then just moving on from there.

Lucy Gernon (19:26.625)
Yeah, yeah. Amazing. So I think like you hit on something really important there. I think it’s like all people just want to be seen and heard. And I think a big mistake leaders make is, you know, if somebody is having that rant, it’s about acknowledging it. It’s about using their exact language and reflecting back their exact language, not what, you know, your interpretation of it is. It’s like, yeah, I hear that you’re frustrated. I’m hearing X, Y and Z. And I understand.

And that’s like can sometimes be a really just simple thing to just like calm someone down in the moment. Whereas when I think you go back with, well, I don’t understand this and you get all this kind of argy bargy going on, which is just not productive. So any other tips for us on the cross -cultural leadership stuff?

Áine Murray (20:16.144)
I’m just trying to think what have I said already and what have I not said. Cross -cultural and I talked about.

Lucy Gernon (20:30.273)
We covered this.

Áine Murray (20:31.248)
I think we actually have covered it. I don’t think that just, yeah, I think the main thing is when you’re working in the team is trying to have that balance of perspectives too. But also, and maybe I haven’t touched on this so much yet is you have to have the clear, no, I did talk about the process and the process that you are going to use within the project, not just for gathering the input, but also for when you’re going to take the decision to move forward.

Because different cultures, some are a bit more abstract. They like to debate things a bit more. Some are a bit more direct and straight down to business. So you do have to say, right, this is the process we’re going to use. This is how we’re going to get the input. When the leader is happy that we’ve gotten all the input we need, this is the process of using. The leader is going to make the decision. I think the leader has to be incredibly aware of when you reach the point of diminishing returns on input.

So when have you got as much input as it’s going to help you make the maximum impact from your action and when is the time to act? For every extra input that you receive, is it actually going to make any significant difference to the action that you take or the impact that that action has? So the leader has to know and set the tone of this is the process we’re using. This is now the time to make the decision. This is the decision I’m making.

This is why I’ve made the decision. I’ve heard all your input, but this is where we’re going in line with the process we’ve agreed. Now we’re moving on to the next phase. And it’s because you could collaboration is one thing, but consensus is another. And the role of the leader is to actually produce the action to produce the results and use that input to best effect and best impact. So they do have to know that point in the process. Right. This is and be clear on what the decision is. Sometimes it takes a lot of bravery sometimes to be clear.

Lucy Gernon (22:15.521)
Yeah.

Yes.

Áine Murray (22:22.288)
on what the decision is and what that decision is and then to move on to the action and move on to the next thing.

Lucy Gernon (22:23.937)
Mm -hmm.

Lucy Gernon (22:28.609)
Yeah, amazing. I was actually just recording, I have a new course called the Executive President’s Blueprint. It’ll be out actually when this show is out so I can kind of say it. But I was recording a module on decision making actually because I think a massive mistake a lot of leaders make is, well, number one, procrastinating on decisions, right? But that’s the very first step in my method that I have. It’s about obviously gathering the data or the input.

And then it’s about making a decision. Okay, when do I actually have enough? Like, what does enough look like? And then it’s about having the bravery and the courage to make it actually make a decision. And I think I was always told it was a great piece of advice I got really early on in my career, which was there’s very few decisions that can’t be reversed. And the most of the time we think, my God, if I make this decision and it’s wrong, what’s going to happen? But business is all about taking risks. It’s all about making decisions and it’s all about.

Áine Murray (23:11.728)
Mm.

Lucy Gernon (23:22.113)
I think, you know, painting that vision, I think is another so such an important thing. And it’s not all about the objective for the company. It’s actually way more about, well, what’s in it for me? What’s in it for me as an actual individual? And I think that’s another area leaders fall down. I remember being in work so many times with different leaders and they’d be talking all about the importance of this to the organization. And yes, absolutely. We’re all there for the organization.

But that’s not most people’s intrinsic motivator. It’s all about like bringing in, how does this benefit me when I’m communicating this decision to.

Áine Murray (23:57.968)
Yeah, but I do, I completely agree with you, but I do think that is an important thing as well. A lot of leaders might take the decision, but you have to communicate the decision. And maybe they don’t always communicate it to all of the stakeholder groups who input it into it. They might only communicate the decision to one of the stakeholder groups. And it is so important that you communicate the decision, the why, the desired impact to all of the stakeholder groups. That’s…

Lucy Gernon (24:07.745)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Lucy Gernon (24:26.177)
Hmm. And how would you do that? Just like an email or what do you normally do?

Áine Murray (24:30.608)
It depends on how, I suppose, the input process. But so if you’ve been reaching that, taking that input through meetings, you’re going to have to call a meeting back again. Or if you’ve agreed in the meeting, I’m going to go take the decision. I would still always, whoever has inputted, go back in the same method to which they inputted. So if they, if it was getting input by email, go back by email. But if that decision was through brainstorming collaboration, go back in that meeting.

Lucy Gernon (24:42.625)
Mmm.

Lucy Gernon (24:59.009)
Yeah.

Áine Murray (25:00.496)
but then also go wider because there’s a lot of other people around the business who might not have been directly involved, but who will be watching to see what that decision is, what the impact of that project is to. And then that’s out then through the normal communications channels or engagement channels. If there are meetings, if they are webinars, in Trenet articles, newsletters, whatever the usual channels might be. But you have to remember the other, and like you say, it’s not just the organization, it’s the employees.

customers, shareholders, environment, society at large, depending on who the relevant stakeholders are in each of those processes, you have to consider all of them and don’t forget to communicate the decision back.

Lucy Gernon (25:40.257)
Yeah, absolutely great tip. Absolutely great tip. I love that. So, Onya, I think we’ve covered everything. I always ask my guests a couple of questions at the end, if you don’t mind. So firstly, I want to ask you about a book. What’s one book that you think, you know, every leader should read?

Áine Murray (25:52.176)
course.

Áine Murray (26:03.984)
Hmm. There is a book and I can’t remember the name of it. It’s all about the first three months in your new role. Let me follow up after this because I am very good at going blank when I really want to talk about something. But there is another fictional book that’s called Mornings in Jenin and it’s by Susan Abula.

I’m going to pronounce this wrong, so I apologize to anybody with a surname. Abulwaha. And it’s all about just the situation in the Middle East. But what it does is it provides so many different perspectives, just one family’s story over time. And I thought it was just it just allowed me to remember the importance of opening up your mind to different contexts, particularly when you’re talking about that business environment.

Lucy Gernon (26:51.777)
Mmm.

Áine Murray (26:55.984)
you always have to remember you don’t know what context that other person is coming in. Have they just been fighting with the three year old about the colour of their cereal bowl and they’re coming in very triggered into a business meeting? So you just don’t know what or have they got something much more serious going on and not to trivialise what people have going on in their lives. But you never know the full context of the person sitting in front of you. And I think that is a very important thing to bear in mind in business and in life.

Lucy Gernon (27:00.545)
Yeah.

Lucy Gernon (27:07.073)
Mm -hmm.

Lucy Gernon (27:19.521)
Yeah.

Áine Murray (27:25.776)
is that how a person is responding to you right now might be 10 % how they’re responding to you, but it might be 90 % something else entirely.

Lucy Gernon (27:32.801)
Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And what about the best piece of advice you’ve ever received?

Áine Murray (27:39.76)
See.

Áine Murray (27:44.176)
It’s something similar and I don’t know if it was advice but was that type of thing I don’t know. Is it just an Irish thing growing up with the mammy bringing you around and saying you don’t need to go into change and put that on there so nobody’s looking at you. But it’s that idea. Most people are only worried about themselves. They’re not going around actively worrying about what you’re doing or why you look like that. And if most

Like that, likewise again, it’s that same piece, it’s that same theme as people are responding to you from their perspective, from where they’re at, from how they’re thinking about themselves, not about how they’re thinking about you. And it’s something I, with my own children, I remind them a lot, well, they said something to me, they probably were worried about something else and it just came out like that. And I think it’s the same in the work environment, it’s just the same in life. People are thinking about…

Lucy Gernon (28:34.177)
Yeah.

Áine Murray (28:40.336)
themselves. Obviously they’re thinking about other people too, but how they respond to things, how they react to things is always about where they’re at. Never.

Lucy Gernon (28:46.817)
Absolutely, absolutely. my God, you just gave me goosebumps. I love that advice. Thank you so much for being an amazing guest. Where can people find you if they want to connect?

Áine Murray (28:56.048)
Yeah, generally I’m on LinkedIn. It’s probably the best place on your Murray. On LinkedIn, you’ll find the Veolia Ireland page as well and the France Ireland Chamber of Commerce page there too. So any of those channels. Also, yeah, I think LinkedIn is probably the best one to be honest. It’s the one I’m on the most.

Lucy Gernon (29:11.745)
Okay, amazing. Well, listen, Anja, thank you so much for being a fabulous guest. I’ll talk to you again soon.

Áine Murray (29:16.496)
Thank you very much Lucy, it was a pleasure to have this chat.