#134 Essential tips for leading neurodiverse teams with Tamzin Hall

Lucy Gernon (00:00.942)
Tamzin, you are very welcome to the show. I’d love for you to introduce yourself to our audience and let us know who you are, a little bit about you and what you do.

Tamzin Hall (00:08.924)
Hi Lucy, thank you so much for having me on the show today. Yes, my name is Tamsin. I’m the founder of the Neurodiversity Academy and I help organizations, business owners, leaders, HR professionals to effectively support and help the Neurodivergent team members to really thrive in the workplace.

Lucy Gernon (00:29.55)
Amazing. So let’s just back up. Where did this interest come from?

Tamzin Hall (00:35.708)
So I am dyslexic and I was diagnosed with dyslexia when I was about 14. And I went through the 80s and the 90s in school undiagnosed with all of that stigma and all of that negative experiences that a lot of people do receive at school if they’re undiagnosed. And then I went into the workplace and kind of knew that I had to go into the workplace as…

Tamzin rather than dyslexic Tamzin or Tamzin with dyslexia and so I masked for years and I had a great corporate career in leadership and I showed up as the person that I thought they needed me to be and the person that wasn’t the dyslexic person wasn’t the person going through all of the internal struggles and the battles that neurodivergent people go through and I recently did a, I say recently a couple years ago now, I did my psychology degree.

and I went on to coaching and then all of a sudden it all just clicked where I knew that I was actually here to help leaders to support people like me because when neurodivergent individuals are supported, they thrive, they’re high performing, amazing things happen. Yet when they are left to their own devices, that’s when they start to struggle.

Lucy Gernon (02:00.974)
Mm.

Tamzin Hall (02:01.724)
I find a lot of people think, and might not be you or your audiences, but kind of this is just a, I suppose, a general impression that people say to me is, but people with new adversity have been supported through school. They don’t need it when they come into work. They should have everything that they need. And it’s like, well, no, because people evolve, people change, their environment changes, and we always need to support. So I think it’s a bit of a…

I don’t know, a bit of a gap in knowledge, I suppose, and understanding, especially if somebody doesn’t have neurodiversity in their world or they’re not neurodivergent themselves. It’s kind of that perception and the amount of support out there for workplaces is, I would say, quite limited, especially for me in a corporate career.

Lucy Gernon (02:42.254)
It’s kind of that perception.

Tamzin Hall (02:54.3)
So that’s how I got into it because I really wanted to help just everybody to really thrive in their roles.

Lucy Gernon (03:01.55)
Amazing. Okay. So I’m going to break it. Let’s just go back to basics. Can we just please define like what exactly does it mean to be in your divergent?

Tamzin Hall (03:10.428)
Neurodivergence is the banner which under it includes ADHD, autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADD, AUDHD, bipolar, Tourette, etc. The simple way that I explain is there’s just something in our brain. I’m diagnosed dyslexic and self -diagnosed ADHD.

And there’s just something in my brain that is just a bit different. It’s something that I’m never going to be able to change. It is what it is. It isn’t, you know, I’m not, I’m not broken. I’m me. I just need to figure out strategies and ways to navigate through and to thrive with my neurodiversity. So that’s how I explain it.

Lucy Gernon (03:58.574)
Amazing. And I think years ago there was such a stigma around it, right? Which is why back in school, like you said, in the 80s and 90s, you weren’t diagnosed because it was seen as, you know, being something wrong, quote unquote, with people who had those, I suppose, symptoms. But actually now we know, like all the most successful entrepreneurs in the world are neurodivergent, right? So we know now, I think there’s a lot more information and people are starting to become educated about it.

However, there’s still a big problem in that I know there’s leaders listening right now who have people on their team who are neurodivergent, who have not been diagnosed. So how do they, first of all, maybe spot somebody on their team, first of all? Because I think obviously awareness is the first step.

Tamzin Hall (04:48.476)
Yeah, 100%. It can be quite tricky because actually an employee doesn’t need to share. They don’t have to share. They don’t have to tell us. And I find a lot of the time the reasons that people don’t share is exactly what you said, Lucy, is they’ve had so much stigma, so many negative experiences, so many biases towards them throughout school and also in some workplaces.

where they’re just too afraid to share and they don’t want to. And it’s…

I find with even some of my clients, they can have the best relationship in the world with their leader. They respect them, they get on, they have a really great working relationship, and yet they still don’t feel comfortable to share that they are autistic or ADHD. And it’s nothing to do with the leader. I have a lot of leaders who say, but I don’t understand. I want them to trust me. I’m doing all I can to help them to trust me. But…

Sometimes when people have been through so much and so many heartbreaking experiences because they have shared who they really are, some people just can’t. And so it is really difficult. And it is that I see it from both sides of the table because obviously I work with the neurodivergent individuals, but also I consult with the leaders and the business owners. And so it is a difficult balance to get. And…

You’re absolutely right, awareness is key. So if we can understand what an autistic person in general is very, the added problem is that everybody with ADHD is so different. Everybody with dyslexia is so different. There’s so many things that come up that are different for, is normal for food. For me with dyslexia, this is how my dyslexia shows up. But 99 % of people,

Tamzin Hall (06:46.236)
with dyslexia, it won’t have the same traits that I have. So it’s really difficult to spot, but if leaders can kind of just understand the general for autism, this is what shows up for dyslexia. This is what shows up for ADHD. This is what shows up. But also a really easy way is if you have somebody who keeps behaving in a certain way, and even though you’ve talked to them, you’ve tried to help them, they’re still behaving in that way.

chances are they have a neurodiversity. So for example, if we have somebody who keeps turning up late, so with ADHD, time blindness is a thing where, you know, ADHD is we can have five minutes is the same as five hours sometimes, we just lose complete concept of time. And so if you have somebody that keeps bundling through the door, two minutes past, my gosh, I’m really sorry, I’m late, I’m late again, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.

Lucy Gernon (07:23.438)
Thank you.

Lucy Gernon (07:27.598)
We can have five minutes.

Lucy Gernon (07:39.63)
two minutes past, my gosh, I’m really sorry, I’m late, I’m late again, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. And you’ve caught them up on it and you’ve had a conversation with them and they keep doing it. Chances are, this is very general, but chances are there will be a new adversity there.

Tamzin Hall (07:44.22)
And you’ve pulled them up on it and you’ve had a conversation with them and they keep doing it. Chances are, I mean, this is very general, but chances are there will be a newer diversity there that’s stopping them from either getting out the door, stopping them from realizing how long it’s going to take them to get ready, how long it’s going to take them to get to work. And just noticing those patterns and giving them the time and the space to…

Lucy Gernon (08:08.238)
giving them the time and the space.

Tamzin Hall (08:12.7)
to share with you if they feel comfortable.

Lucy Gernon (08:15.414)
Okay. And so you mentioned it’s like about spotting that there’s, you know, everyone is different, obviously, and it’s going to show up differently. But like, what would be maybe a key telltale sign for somebody who’s autistic, for example?

Tamzin Hall (08:30.286)
So if somebody is, and again, this is very general, so I’m not kind of saying every autistic individual has this, but this is quite a common trait. So interrupting, so if somebody is constantly interrupting, if they can’t make eye contact, and if they are quite socially awkward in conversations, especially in group conversations.

Lucy Gernon (08:34.478)
Mm -hmm.

Lucy Gernon (08:54.478)
Okay. And what about like, you know, I think isn’t it that sometimes people with autism are very rigid and they’re thinking like black and white. Is that another thing?

Tamzin Hall (09:03.612)
Yes, yes, very rigid in thinking, very, it is very structured. Sorry, I’ve completely lost my train of thought. Something just caught my eye. I’m really sorry. Yeah, just this is my dyslexia and my ADHD. I’m like there one minute and I’m like, I’m lost, I’m lost, I’m over there.

Lucy Gernon (09:19.566)
You’re okay!

Lucy Gernon (09:29.102)
Don’t worry, don’t worry, take your time.

Tamzin Hall (09:33.444)
Come back, sorry. Yes, absolutely. So there is that literal thinking and very black and white. So for example, if you say to an autistic child, it’s raining cats and dogs, they will think literally cats and dogs are falling out of the sky because they’re such literal thinkers.

Lucy Gernon (09:56.622)
Hmm. And so like, how do you deal with somebody? So say there is somebody on your team or somebody in your, in your family, your friend, who is that like rigid thinking and they’re very, cause I’ve seen it, like people who are very, you know, you said we were doing it at this time. And what do you mean now the plan has changed? Like, and they just literally can’t deal with the change. It can be quite difficult for other people being around that too. So how do you navigate that piece?

Tamzin Hall (10:24.316)
So it starts with awareness and knowing and knowing that somebody is going to be very

wobbled by change. So I can remember, gosh, I’m almost embarrassed to share this, but I can remember when I was 25 and I ran a center of, I think we had about 50, 60 staff. And every week I used to change the floor plan. So everyone came in on a Monday morning and where they were sitting changed. And I thought at the time it was, you know, it was instruction come from above and it was something that we had to do. And I thought it was great. But looking back now, I think.

my gosh, those poor autistic members of my team, they must have been absolutely mortified when they came in in the morning and I changed where they were sitting. So please don’t do that. If you do that, please don’t do that because it is, they have to have so much notice and be able to prepare and know exactly what’s going to happen. So we need to give them time to almost…

Lucy Gernon (11:14.382)
Mm -hmm.

Tamzin Hall (11:34.3)
walk it through in their mind. And this is why when you have somebody say, I’m going to meet you at three o ‘clock and we’re going to go here, then here, then here. An autistic person has already planned every step of the way and they know exactly what’s going to happen. They know exactly how they’re going to get to meet you. They know everything and they’re happy with that. And then if we change, they can’t, it just, their brain cannot physically cope with.

Lucy Gernon (11:47.118)
Mmm.

Tamzin Hall (12:03.42)
But we were doing that and now we’re doing this. I’ve got some clients who, if they’re driving somewhere and there’s roadworks and there’s a diversion, they have to go home. They can’t continue because…

Lucy Gernon (12:05.166)
Mm -hmm.

Lucy Gernon (12:13.814)
Hmm. It’s so funny as you’re saying that I’m just thinking there’s somebody so I’ve already shared like I’m pretty sure I have ADHD, right? And there’s somebody in my life who I’m pretty sure has autism. So what’s so funny is that I am the most spontaneous person. I’m super structured, right? Really structured because it’s been the tool I’ve used my whole life to kind of keep me. I need the structure, right? But I could literally be walking on the way to a restaurant that I booked and then I’ll go,

know, why don’t we just drive an hour this way? Because I get shiny object syndrome. OK. And I get really excited by spontaneity. Whereas, you know, my husband’s good with that. My husband rolls with it. But there is a certain individual in my life where, you know, we’ve clashed so many times because I’m so spontaneous and she just doesn’t understand because, like we said, we were going to this particular place. So obviously, you’ve got the you’ve got to respect the other person.

Tamzin Hall (12:46.3)
Thank you.

Lucy Gernon (13:09.774)
But what about you if you’re if you are also neurodivergent? Like, how the hell does that work?

Tamzin Hall (13:15.228)
It’s so difficult, isn’t it? It’s so difficult. And there’s so many different factors. So all of this starts with understanding. So understanding ourselves and understanding exactly as you said, Lucy, you know that I’m exactly same as you, by the way. I’m like, I can’t plan anything until the last minute because I don’t know. Well, you know, I want that excitement and that spontaneity. So it’s knowing ourselves and it’s knowing exactly what makes us happy and what we need. And it’s knowing the other person as well. And…

that starts with them knowing themselves. And sometimes I find, especially with autism, I’m finding at the moment with people kind of 30s plus, where they have experienced so much negativity in the past, it’s helping them to really understand themselves almost from the beginning. So kind of starting from scratch again and helping them to understand that actually,

The reason I don’t like change and I don’t like plans changing is because of this is who I am. But it’s what do they need in that moment when you want to go an hour and a half down the road rather than going where you’ve already booked. In that moment, what do they need? What do they need to know? And what do you need? And what do you need to know? And once you understand that, it’s like you can meet in the middle and you can be okay.

Lucy Gernon (14:37.23)
Mm.

Tamzin Hall (14:38.332)
I want to go over here, but I’m going to give you, you know, maybe we’ll have a conversation about it for 10 minutes before I make that decision. And I will have that conversation in a way that you need me to have that conversation and we’ll decide together.

Lucy Gernon (14:53.77)
Yeah, no, I love that. I think that’s a great, that’s a great suggestion. I’m just, I’m just laughing thinking of that particular person would just be like, no.

Tamzin Hall (15:02.684)
So what they’ll need is they’ll need to know the everything, the what, the why and the when. So the three W’s, I don’t know if you’ve heard that before. Actually, it works great for all new adversities. So if you’re giving somebody a task or if you’re taking on a task or if you’re just changing the restaurant that you’re going to, think about the three W’s. It’s the what, the when and the why. So what’s happening, when’s it happening and why is it happening?

Lucy Gernon (15:31.502)
Hmm, that is such a good tip.

Tamzin Hall (15:33.532)
So we can also change that if you’re giving someone some work to do what is it they need to do? Why do they need to do it? A lot of people forget the why but neurodiverse brains need to know the why. So the what is it we’re doing, why we’re doing it and when do you need it by because with ADHD we have to have that time limit. So many ADHD is up. I don’t do it until the last minute.

I don’t do it until kind of the deadline’s approaching and then I can really get hyper -focused. But if it’s a task that I’ve got two weeks to do, I’m just not going to do it. But if we don’t have a timeframe, we’re never going to get to that, okay, now I’ve got two days to do it, I really need to get on and do it. And so it doesn’t get done.

Lucy Gernon (16:15.886)
Hmm. Hmm. That’s so interesting. I think it’s so useful for you to just explain because like I’m totally resonating with what you’re saying in terms of like the hyper focus and like all, you know, people who can perform like that are, you know, can get such a tremendous amount of work done in a super short space of time. And I think it’s about, you know, if you’ve got team members who I’ve seen it, you know, leaders will go.

Tamzin Hall (16:36.604)
Yes.

Lucy Gernon (16:42.926)
Have you started working on this particular task? It’s due in two weeks and they’ll say no, because they’re going, it’s not happened for two weeks. Whereas your style might be, well, I like to plan and get things done earlier. So I think it goes back to that compromise again, right? It’s about maybe move, if you want to done earlier, well, then you need to move the actual deadline and explain why, right?

Tamzin Hall (17:04.988)
great way to do that. If you are somebody that is a real planner and has to have everything and the process and know every step of the way and have it in progress weeks beforehand, but you’re working with somebody that literally is that two -day deadline and won’t do anything until the deadline. Put checking points in. Put checking points where it might just be a five, 10 -minute conversation so they know that’s a deadline for a checking point.

Lucy Gernon (17:34.222)
Mmm.

Tamzin Hall (17:35.676)
that works really, really well if you’ve got two people that are so different. And it can be really frustrating, can’t it? If you’re that person that likes to pan and likes to have everything and likes to know that things are being worked on and it’s going to reach its deadline where you’ve got somebody that just won’t do it until the end. That’s a great way to bring it all together in a…

Lucy Gernon (17:40.91)
Amazing.

Lucy Gernon (17:54.99)
Mm.

Lucy Gernon (18:00.342)
And ladies, like if you’re multitasking, come back to me on this one, because I think what Tamsin just said is really powerful. I think sometimes we think about neurodiversity as this big complex thing that, you know, we don’t know how to handle. Whereas I think what you’re, what I’m really hearing from you today is like a lot of these strategies are super simple. They’re just like little check -ins or.

understanding the three W’s. So it doesn’t have to be as complex as we need it, as we kind of make it to be, right?

Tamzin Hall (18:31.58)
Yes, and I’m so pleased you’ve picked up on that because this isn’t complicated. It isn’t complicated. And it’s something that I don’t change a million things in my client’s day. This is about just really simple strategies that will help. I do find that the neurodiversity conversation is almost something that people are scared of. And I think…

know, all over the internet at the moment, there’s a you can’t say it this way, you can’t say it this way, you can’t talk about this, you can’t do that, you can’t do that. And I think it’s really frightening people from even having a conversation. And that’s totally the opposite of everything that I’m trying to achieve, because we need to be having a conversation, we need to be understanding what’s going on. And some people want to be cool. So there’s this

identity first language. So some people want to be the autistic first or I’m Tamsin, I’m dyslexic. I’m Tamsin, I have dyslexia are two very different terminologies. And some people are very, well, no, I want to use this. This is what’s important to me. No, my dyslexia comes first. That’s what’s important to me. And I think we can, as a society, we can’t say,

This is the only way you can talk about it when everybody has such different preferences. And so just having that conversation and maybe having a conversation on a one -to -one basis rather than open plan and really understanding what the person in front of you, how they want to have the conversation, how they want to be addressed, how their neurodiversity shows up for them. Because…

Lucy Gernon (20:01.646)
Mm -hmm.

Tamzin Hall (20:22.492)
It’s then once we just say to not, I’m just going to have the conversation. I’m just going to make this really simple. This isn’t something to be scared of. This isn’t something that is huge, hugely time consuming, hugely costly. Yes, for the individual, of course it can be all consuming at times, but we can get to a stage where it doesn’t stop people from moving forward. It’s just an awareness and a conversation that…

Lucy Gernon (20:48.75)
Hmm.

Tamzin Hall (20:52.124)
that we can get to place that it can be really simple.

Lucy Gernon (20:55.374)
Hmm. Amazing. And what about if there are leaders listening to this show who who have, you know, who are neurodivergent themselves, right? So if you’ve got a neurodivergent leader, which there absolutely will be, who are also leading teams who inevitably will have neurodivergent people, what would you say, like whose needs should they take care of first, their needs or their team’s needs?

Tamzin Hall (21:19.132)
their needs, I would say they need to understand themselves first, they need to know what their triggers are, they need to know. So I do a great exercise, which is called, it’s based on the Maslow hierarchy of needs, actually, where we talk about, if you think about that the Maslow hierarchy of needs in a triangle, at the bottom is the environment. So it’s what do you need in your environment when you’re working at your best?

What does that environment need to look like? And for every single person with neurodiversity and who’s neurotypical, that will be different. So for example, somebody with autism might need to wear noise -cancelling headsets. They might need to be in a corner desk, away from distractions, away from noise. They might need to have their camera off when they’re on calls because actually having their camera on just brings up so much stress and anxiety for them.

If they know exactly what their environment looks like as a leader, they can then ensure, obviously not all the time, but that their environment is looked after. It’s a bit like kind of, you know, putting your oxygen mask on first. Let’s look after you as a leader. Let’s understand you as a leader. Let’s understand what you need, what your triggers are, what happens when you are in that stress state, how you then react because…

Somebody with autism, for example, or ADHD, or in fact any neurodiversity, it might be when they’re in that really heightened stress state, they might get a bit snappy or maybe a bit angry. And it’s, as a leader, if you’re dealing with so many different neurodiversities, so many different types of people and so many different balls that you’re juggling, and you might get stressed sometimes.

Knowing what your triggers are, knowing when you notice your triggers, you can take yourself away from that situation. So just walk away. My biggest tip is if you feel that trigger coming, and obviously in coaching we can really dive deep to find out what that is, but if you find that trigger, just walk away and go and get a cup of coffee. Just excuse yourself and go for a comfort break. Just stop that kind of process that you’re on.

Tamzin Hall (23:37.82)
that’s going to, that’s it. Yeah. And I think when, when you know yourself, and if you’re, if you’re autistic as a leader and you’re dealing with somebody who’s ADHD, who this is why AUDHD, which is the autism and ADHD combined, because 50 % of people, around 50 % of people with autism also have ADHD. And they then have this huge internal conflict, because the

Lucy Gernon (23:38.286)
The escalation. Yeah, great advice.

Tamzin Hall (24:07.1)
ADHD spontaneity is exactly what you’re talking about versus the autistic brain who needs that real routine and real structure. There’s a huge internal conflict. But if you’re managing somebody who’s very different from you, if you know what your triggers are and you know when you identify, okay, I’m now going to start to get quite stressed, so I need to just take a break. So we’re going to have a break and we’re going to come back to this. That’s how you manage when you know yourself first of all.

and then you can really get to know your team. It’s quite a lengthy process, but it’s really worth it.

Lucy Gernon (24:41.934)
Yeah. And I think what’s really important to remember is like, there’s nothing wrong with you, right? There’s nothing wrong with, you know, it’s not that you’re broken, like you said earlier, it’s not that you need to be fixed. It’s actually that you need to understand yourself so you can thrive. Right. And I think when you understand yourself and then you understand other people, well, actually you give yourself what you need. You understand others, give them what they need. And there’s no problem in theory.

Tamzin Hall (25:09.468)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course, things change and situations happen and people, they can change jobs, there can be something going on at home, something going on at work that puts us into this stress state. And I always find when I’m tired and when I’m stressed, my neurodiversity traits are so much more heightened. So I will…

Lucy Gernon (25:11.598)
Heheheheh

Tamzin Hall (25:36.22)
think I’ve probably got dyspraxia as well because I keep dropping things. So my husband will notice and he’ll say, okay, you’re tired. You need to go away from the kitchen because you smashed a plate and I know what’s coming if I don’t remove you from the kitchen right now. So it’s also around knowing when things are going to be a little bit more challenging and those traits are going to be a bit more obvious.

Lucy Gernon (25:58.766)
Amazing, amazing. Like such simple practical advice. I absolutely love it. Is there anything else that we need to know?

Tamzin Hall (26:07.132)
I’m sure there is because I can talk for hours and hours and days on this subject. But I think the key thing is, and my biggest piece of advice is, the awareness is the first step. And it’s going into this awareness without any judgment. So if it’s you as an individual or member of your team, and there’s this, take me dropping things, for example, I know why I drop things.

It’s not that I’m broken. It’s not that I’m, yes, okay, I might be really clumsy, but it isn’t that I’m doing it on purpose. Nobody’s doing it on purpose. We can be really hard on ourselves. So kind of I’m talking to the individuals here that are also listening, thinking, I might have a neurodiversity. Don’t be hard on yourself and try not to be hard on others because people don’t come into work in the morning and we don’t wake up in the morning thinking.

I’m going to really annoy people today because I’m going to get my spelling wrong or I’m going to turn up later, I’m going to drop things. People don’t do it on purpose. And it’s when we can understand exactly why things happen for people and help them to put strategies in place. That’s when people can thrive and that valuing people and giving people just our, our belief in them and our belief in ourselves. It’s huge.

Lucy Gernon (27:28.694)
Huge. And you just got me thinking there about, you know, we’ve been talking a lot about, I suppose, the I’m not going to say negative side, but yeah, the more negative side of all of this, right. But let’s talk a little bit about the huge positives that come from neurodiversity in terms of strengths, for example. So, you know, obviously.

you know, positive psychology as well. Like, you know, it’s all about leveraging strengths and it’s all about leaning into that. So there’s a lot of people I know who are listening and have people on their team who have total untapped potential and superpowers that are not being used. So talk to me a little bit about that.

Tamzin Hall (28:04.38)
Yes.

Tamzin Hall (28:09.084)
Yeah, so I think you touched on earlier, Lucy, 40 % of self -made billionaires are, is it billionaires or millionaires? I think it’s millionaires. 40 % of self -made millionaires are dyslexic. So there are so many strengths, and if we can allow the strengths to come through and just see those strengths and see that this is a positive, and I know a lot of people with neurodiversity,

don’t see it as a positive. They don’t see that they have got, you know, some absolutely amazing traits, but there are, I promise you. I think every single person on this planet is absolutely amazing and has so much to give. We just need to help them see it. And so you’ve got that with autism, that literal thinking is so useful, is so useful in teams that…

Lucy Gernon (28:55.79)
Mm.

Tamzin Hall (29:07.324)
That being able to take a document and read it and memorize it, it blows my mind. As someone with dyslexia, it just blows my mind how autistic individuals can just remember such amazing things. Also that real attention to detail and they’re so honest. It’s so amazing.

And there’s pros and cons to that. There are pros and cons to that. I won’t not mention that because they are so honest. They will never lie. They will never do anything wrong. The honesty is huge. Sorry, I’ll caveat that. They will never do anything wrong intentionally. Obviously everybody makes mistakes, but yes, yes, yes.

Lucy Gernon (29:56.878)
It’s all about rules, isn’t it? And, and yeah, it’s all about kind of rules and structure. So like, yeah. So if you’ve got somebody on your team like that, instead of, you know, maybe berating them or getting frustrated, think about where else in your organization, maybe they’re in the wrong role and maybe it’s not about them. Maybe it’s just the role. So it’s like leveraging that strength. Imagine being able to do that.

Tamzin Hall (30:19.58)
Yeah, yeah. And with ADHD, you can give an ADHD deer a project. If you put them in a room and they’re in that hyper -focus state and they can’t, they don’t know when they’re going to be in that hyper -focus. So it’s when they…

Lucy Gernon (30:33.294)
I’m laughing because that’s all me. I’m like yesterday, I created my course. I was like, right, I’m going to record two modules. And I went for like 12 hours straight, like didn’t plan it.

Tamzin Hall (30:40.664)
Yep. Yep. And you didn’t, yes. And you wouldn’t have needed to have been told you need to stop now. That won’t do you any favors. You just need to be, exactly. Just let me, give me coffee, give me food, but just let me carry on. So it’s around giving. So ADHDs work best when they are giving the flexibility and the autonomy to have a, maybe have a bit of downtime. So one of my clients came to me and he said, Hamza, he said,

Lucy Gernon (30:49.486)
no, don’t tell me to stop.

Mm -hmm.

Tamzin Hall (31:08.764)
I keep getting told off because every time a manager comes up to my desk, I’m scrolling the internet. And he said, my manager’s perception is that I’m doing nothing. And he said, but I’m just waiting for that creativity to click in. And as soon as it does, I’m going to be in this hyper -focus and they’re not going to be, you know, I’m just going to produce in huge amount of work and content and what they need in a small amount of time.

But what my manager doesn’t understand is I’m not doing absolutely nothing. I’m just reading, digesting, reviewing, and just feeding my brain with all this amazing information that is going to help me to produce what they need.

Lucy Gernon (31:54.254)
I love that. I talk about that a lot as well. This mindset of stop clock watching and start thinking about it’s like results focused thinking as opposed to the hours your team are working. It’s like you as the leader, you need to decide what is the result? What’s the goal? What’s the tangibles? If they’re getting that done in 10 hours a week, well then you need to look at those goals as opposed to looking at the hours worked, right?

Tamzin Hall (32:19.708)
Yeah, absolutely. Because you will have somebody, so you’ll have an autistic individual who might take a bit longer, but will do it and do it extremely well. But they need to know everything. They need to know all the information, all the detail, all the kind of the history and everything. Whereas you have an ADHD who might do it quicker, but actually it takes them a bit more time to start.

Lucy Gernon (32:34.67)
Mmm.

Lucy Gernon (32:49.454)
Mmm.

Tamzin Hall (32:50.268)
And so, yes, absolutely. It’s about knowing, and again, it goes back to the awareness pieces. It’s about knowing the individual and knowing what is it that they need. And that creative thinking, the innovation, the just, the amazing output that you can get from your staff, from your neurodivergent staff is phenomenal once we understand exactly what they need.

thrive.

Lucy Gernon (33:20.11)
my God, I’m loving this conversation. I could talk to you all day about this. Like, literally, I could talk to you all day. It’s such a fascinating topic. I’m just thinking as well, like I’m thinking of another example that helps somebody that I know that has autism. You were mentioning that they, you know, they need to have all the information and they’ll read every line and all of that. I’ve told a couple of people this and I hope it helps anyone listening who is that kind of like hyper vigilant thinking.

is that if you have perfectionist tendencies with a lot of people with autism do, I always say 80 % is good enough because your 80 % is better than a normal person’s 100%. And when I’ve said that to a couple of people, it’s changed their life because they’re like, no, because they are so literal and then thinking nobody has ever told me this before. But now you’ve told me I’m OK to do 80%. And it’s as simple as that, right?

Tamzin Hall (33:58.524)
Yes.

Tamzin Hall (34:17.82)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. It’s all, it comes back to you, doesn’t it? It’s all really simple. It isn’t rocket science. It is just, and I find a lot of neurodivergent individuals, and obviously I’m saying this because all I work with is neurodivergent individuals, but I find they need the permission that 80 % is more than enough. They need that permission because,

Lucy Gernon (34:25.038)
All simple. Mm -mm.

Tamzin Hall (34:48.06)
They’re so hard on that. We’re hard on ourselves as neurodivergent individuals. We’ve been trying to fit into a neuro -typical world and we’re so hard on ourselves because we compare ourselves to others all the time. It’s that, my gosh, I’m sitting here and I don’t know how to spell Wednesday, for example, for me, you know, I still have to really think about how I spell Wednesday. It’s dyslexic, my spelling is atrocious. And I look at people who…

can spell phenomenal words and I can get so, my gosh, maybe I’m not good enough because I can’t spell, maybe, maybe, you know, I shouldn’t be doing this, and all of these negative things come in because I see someone else who is doing amazing things with spelling. So every single time, guaranteed, I do a presentation, even though it’s been through every single step, every single check, every single thing that I can think of.

There were nine times out of 10 being autistic person who says to me, you’ve got to spend a mistake on your slides. So I always have to have it and I, yes.

Lucy Gernon (35:54.062)
Yeah, because they have feel the need to point it out because they actually think they… This is the other really important thing that I’ve learned. They actually think they’re doing a good thing by pointing it out. They’re not trying to say it to go, you made a spelling mistake. It’s that it’s not right.

Tamzin Hall (36:03.836)
Yes!

Tamzin Hall (36:08.444)
No, and it’s their honesty because they’ve noticed it, they want to share it. And I understand that and I always, whenever I do a presentation, I always say, I have dyslexia, you will find a spelling mistake in here. I promise you, you’ll find one. If you want to come and tell me afterwards, please do come and tell me. Do not worry about, you know, kind of, I just want you to come and come and tell whatever feels right.

Lucy Gernon (36:31.662)
Yeah, so it’s about telling them, right? So it’s about even calling it out with your team members who you know are that way inclined to tell them actually it’s OK to have some spellings that are incorrect. But what’s not OK is X, Y and Z. And then you’re going to give them that permission and the new rules for play, because I think nobody’s ever told them these things before, which is why it’s so important to have people like you educating in the workplace, too. So yeah, go on. Sorry.

Tamzin Hall (36:59.42)
No, I was just going, it was another story. Have I got time for another story? Another quick story. So I was, I’ve been working with a client and she went to an event and she’s ADHD and dyslexic. And she went to an event and it was a round table. And normally what happens is they have a bit of compliance that they need to read out. Then they talk about it as a group and somebody reads out and she.

Lucy Gernon (37:02.286)
Yeah, yeah, go, go, go, go.

Tamzin Hall (37:27.58)
because of her dyslexia, the words are all jumbled up and she really struggles to read out loud. And she was thinking, I really should be the person to put my hands up, but I really can’t, I really don’t want to. And her CEO said, I’m gonna read today. I’ve been working with my coach. I’m gonna read today, but just to let you know, I am dyslexic. And this is me coming completely out of my comfort zone.

and I will make mistakes, please bear with me, but I think it’s important that I do this. And so this CEO read it out the best that she could and my client said, I had tears rolling down my face because all of a sudden I felt okay. I’m getting goosebumps now. Yeah, yeah, should I actually feel okay? I felt valued and I felt heard. And I felt that if my CEO can do that.

Lucy Gernon (38:14.414)
I know, I’m actually gonna cry.

Tamzin Hall (38:25.596)
It’s okay, I’m not broken, I am absolutely valued. And I think it’s really important for staff to see that as a CEO, as a leader, if you have a neurodiversity and you feel okay to share it, the respect of that CEO in the room, there was a table of, I think she said there was about 20 people, and at least half of them said,

I have a new adversity or I have a child who has it and what you’ve done today has been phenomenal. It’s been life changing.

Lucy Gernon (39:00.59)
so good. It goes back to that authentic leadership. It’s more important than ever before. Like from an executive president’s perspective, I literally just created a course on executive presence. And in it, you know, they’ve looked at over the last 10 years, Harvard Business Review, how much has changed in terms of what’s expected of senior leaders and authenticity is now more important than ever before. So that CEO sharing that story.

He may or she may have felt vulnerable sharing that story. However, from an executive presence perspective and bringing your team along and actually building trust and making people feel safe. I mean, there’s like about 50 things, 50 boxes that were ticked by just sharing that story. So thank you for sharing that example. I think it’s really powerful and only one listening. Let this be your sign from Tamsin to share your story, share it with pride.

Tamzin Hall (39:55.708)
Absolutely.

Lucy Gernon (39:55.854)
What would you say to someone who’s considering doing that?

Tamzin Hall (40:00.028)
I think do it in a space where you feel safe because we need you to be okay as well. So this isn’t about standing up in front of, you know, 5 ,000 people if you don’t feel comfortable and sharing. This is about taking those small steps and if you feel okay to do it, do it. If you’re thinking, my gosh, I don’t know how that person did it in front of 20 people, just start with doing it in front of one person and just sharing in front of one person, just helping one person.

And working towards, you know, in that story, the CEO shared that she’d worked with her coach to kind of get to this point. So it wasn’t an instant thing that happened overnight. There was obviously a lot of steps that were taken to get to that place. But just by doing it and as a leader, so many people are looking up to you. So many people need to know that…

It’s okay for them to show up and be who they are and you can show them. You can show them that.

Lucy Gernon (41:03.63)
I love this interview so much. Thank you so much for being here. I could talk to you all day, but I know we have busy jobs to get back to. I have all of my, you know, hyper focus and you have all of your stuff to do as well. So what I’d love to know is I always ask my guests, what’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received?

Tamzin Hall (41:07.772)
Thank you, happy May.

Tamzin Hall (41:25.212)
Just be you.

Lucy Gernon (41:27.79)
What does that mean for you?

Tamzin Hall (41:29.596)
So this is a work in progress and I’m going to be totally transparent. It’s something that I feel like sometimes I’m still working on because even now I still feel the need to conform and to show up as the person that I think people need to be and that comes from years of masking. But I feel like when I do show up as me and just this is who I am, this is Tamsin.

and I’m gonna be loud, I’m gonna be chatty, but do you know what? I will be your biggest cheerleader and I will absolutely believe, I believe in every single person on this planet. And I think it’s, for me, it’s just being authentically me and showing up as me without comparing myself to others and being okay with sharing. And it’s taken…

Lucy Gernon (42:19.47)
Hmm.

Tamzin Hall (42:26.524)
quite a few years to get to where I am, but sharing that, you know what, I don’t know how to spell Wednesday and I don’t know my left and my right, but it doesn’t mean that I’m not good at what I do.

Lucy Gernon (42:35.866)
Exactly. my God, I love it. Thank you for your honesty. Thank you for your authenticity. I feel like we definitely got the real Tamsin here today. So thank you so much for sharing. Finally, what does success, balance and happiness mean to you?

Tamzin Hall (42:51.708)
It’s all to me, it’s all internal. So for me, if I jump out of bed in the morning and I love what I do and I’m happy and I just, I, so I relate it to, I’m a dog lover as you can probably tell by the picture that I’ve got behind me. I love seeing a happy animal. So a happy animal is a dog kind of walking down the road wagging his tail, just happy.

or a happy duck or a happy, you know, whatever it is, an animal that’s happy, to me it’s that. I want, as long as I get that happiness, I’m like, you know what, yeah, today’s a good day, I feel fulfilled, I feel happy. I’m like that, you know, bird flying in the sky free. To me, it’s that. It’s really simple. And also making a difference to others because the transformation that I see is just phenomenal.

Lucy Gernon (43:37.07)
the simplicity of it all.

Tamzin Hall (43:46.46)
And many a time if I come off a coaching call, really holding back the tears and, you know, it’s, yeah, it’s that, it’s those successes and making that difference.

Lucy Gernon (43:57.742)
Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about working with you and what you do?

Tamzin Hall (44:00.348)
Thank you.

Tamzin Hall (44:05.276)
So I’m Tamsin Hall on LinkedIn and my website is thenurodiversityacademy .com.

Lucy Gernon (44:11.918)
Amazing. Well, we link it in the show notes anyway, Tom, and thank you so much for being an amazing guest. I will talk to you again soon. Pleasure.

Tamzin Hall (44:16.604)
Thank you. Thank you for having me.